Timeline for Vowel length in future perfect indicative and perfect conjunctive
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
14 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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| May 6, 2018 at 8:20 | comment | added | Jasper May | @Alex B., no worries. My use of the word pagan may be partly an emotional reaction to what I consider to be excess reverence for one particular kind of Latin in secular academia, and a disrespect for ecclesiastical Latin. As Joonas is mainly interested in the classical Latin, I will vote for your answer, and maybe ask my follow-up question as you and he suggested. | |
| May 5, 2018 at 20:02 | comment | added | Alex B. | @JasperMay I hope in my comment I didn't come off unnecessarily dismissive or rude. I have to admit, the word "pagan" did rub me the wrong way; it would be nice to stick to the accepted, standard terminology, which is "classical." The question you ask "why and when did such respected Latin grammars begin to teach that they should be distinguished?" is interesting and I encourage you to do research on that and report your findings here. | |
| May 5, 2018 at 17:59 | comment | added | Joonas Ilmavirta♦ | @JasperMay Asking what happened in later or earlier Latin would make a good follow-up question. When it comes to post-classical Latin, I find it unlikely that a quantity distinction would be reintroduced, but this is only my intuition speaking. It would also make sense to ask about the origins of length choices of modern grammarians. All the details on this matter will certainly not fit in this single question, and I'm always happy to see people pick up a question or answer dig deeper in a follow-up question. | |
| May 5, 2018 at 17:53 | vote | accept | Joonas Ilmavirta♦ | ||
| May 5, 2018 at 17:48 | comment | added | Joonas Ilmavirta♦ | I learned my Latin from pedagogical material, not scientific material (as almost everyone, I suppose). Pedagogical material will always cut some corners short and they will also contain occasional errors. Therefore it is of great value to understand why we believe the vowels are as long as they are, and the strongest answers to that rely on research. Alex B.'s answer indicates that both lengths are possible in both forms, and it therefore makes sense for a pedagogical author to pick the length that makes the most sense to them. Consulting several grammars is useful but gives no proof. | |
| May 5, 2018 at 17:40 | comment | added | Jasper May | I admit that your sources do show that (pagan) 'classical' Latin lost the distinction. I am also interested in Latin as it was used throughout the two millennia since the days of Cicero. | |
| May 5, 2018 at 17:16 | comment | added | Alex B. | I will say it for the last time, Ørber, Henle, TY Latin and Wheelock are pedagogical grammars but they are of no research value. What they say is of little interest to me. | |
| May 5, 2018 at 17:13 | comment | added | Jasper May | Ørberg is on your side, but Henle, TY Latin and Wheelock are against you. If 'from roughly Cicero's time onwards, the future perfect indicative forms and the perfect subjunctive forms were no longer morphologically distinct', then why and when did such respected Latin grammars begin to teach that they should be distinguished? | |
| May 5, 2018 at 16:57 | answer | added | Alex B. | timeline score: 8 | |
| May 5, 2018 at 16:49 | comment | added | Alex B. | Apples an oranges. Ørberg, Henle etc. are secondary, pedagogical grammars, good for studying Latin but completely useless for doing research, whereas Wallace and Weiss are serious researchers generating new knowledge. | |
| May 5, 2018 at 16:37 | comment | added | Jasper May | So now we have Weiss and Wallace joining the side of Ørberg and Joonas' Finnish book, against Henle, Teach Yourself Latin, and Wheelock. | |
| May 5, 2018 at 13:58 | history | edited | Joonas Ilmavirta♦ | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 231 characters in body
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| May 5, 2018 at 13:33 | answer | added | Jasper May | timeline score: 3 | |
| May 5, 2018 at 11:34 | history | asked | Joonas Ilmavirta♦ | CC BY-SA 4.0 |