Timeline for What is the subject of "venit" in this sentence from Naufragium?
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| Oct 11, 2021 at 18:10 | history | edited | Mitomino | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Oct 11, 2021 at 18:01 | history | edited | Mitomino | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Oct 11, 2021 at 17:34 | comment | added | Mitomino | @BenKovitz Perhaps Petrarch did not consider the genitive in this construction as grammatically motivated, hence his conjecture of inserting imago to justify this case. Linguistically speaking, what I think is interesting is that from this non-agentive collocation (in mentem venire) there is no way to obtain an impersonal passive. Note that the impersonal passive of venire would only be possible if and only if the verb is agentive (e.g. ubi eo ventum est ('when they arrived there', Caes. BG. 1.43.4)). See the Latin section in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impersonal_passive_voice | |
| Oct 11, 2021 at 17:10 | history | edited | Mitomino | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
minor change & Italian example added
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| Oct 7, 2021 at 21:50 | comment | added | Ben Kovitz | An implied imago is certainly an interesting idea. It would even explain Erasmus's de. Here, though, is a deep theoretical question: couldn't each impersonal in mentem venit result not from a rule or implied subject, but each person making an analogy with other impersonal verbs anew? | |
| Oct 7, 2021 at 20:17 | history | edited | Mitomino | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
changes based on comments
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| Oct 7, 2021 at 20:07 | comment | added | Mitomino | @BenKovitz See the comment in this link: books.google.es/… | |
| Oct 7, 2021 at 20:05 | comment | added | Mitomino | @BenKovitz My hunch is that the genitive in this particular example/construction could not sound natural to Erasmus and he preferred using the PP "de+abl." In this sense it is also interesting that, as you can see in the link below, Petrarch has been said to conjecture insertion of (nominative) imago to account for the genitive in this example from Cicero, Pro Sulla, VI, 19 : cum vestrorum periculorum, cum huius urbis, cum illorum delubrorum atque templorum, cum puerorum infantium, cum matronarum ac virginum veniebat in mentem. | |
| Oct 7, 2021 at 17:29 | comment | added | Ben Kovitz | I'm glad this construction has received scholarly attention and isn't just my usual language learner's confusion! I took de to invoke the notion of a topic (like "about" in English), i.e. Erasmus wasn't using de as a generic or genitive preposition. Plausible? | |
| Oct 7, 2021 at 16:21 | history | edited | Mitomino | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Oct 7, 2021 at 16:16 | history | answered | Mitomino | CC BY-SA 4.0 |