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12

I read through Ron Conte's blog post and find it sloppy and unscholarly. He makes the (correct) point that Fr. Z's proposed translation sounds literal and stinted and, almost in the same words, asks us to use his translation even though it makes no grammatical sense, because he has translated many things. It does not help that his proposed translation is ...


8

I think that your question will become a lot clearer when you realize that the gerundive is a participle: specifically, it is the future passive participle. This is thus not a question of choosing between a gerundive and a participle, but rather choosing which participle (tense and voice) to use. Here is a brief overview of the kinds of participles of ...


8

You were spot on with your parsing of iussit; it is, in fact, the third person singular perfect active indicative of iubeō, iubēre, iussī, iussum. With regards to parātīs (the macrons should give a bit of a spoiler regarding what it is), you were not quite there. It is the perfect passive participle of parō, parāre, parāvī, parātum, and is being used in an ...


7

I strongly incline to the view that bibendum is a gerundive, not only because it is paired with an unambiguous gerundive, but also because the context demands some kind of obligation, a notion not communicated by gerunds. I understand the gerund to have the same modal force as the infinitive (which explains its absence in the nominative), so I don't think a ...


7

The gerund is only used in the singular, so for that reason alone praestandis has to be a gerundive. The gerund is a verbal noun (and as a subject or object is replaced by the infinitive). The gerundive is a verbal adjective; it adapts its form to the gender, number, and case of whatever it modifies. There is no good analogue for this distinction in English,...


7

Weiss writes that "The u-forms are characteristic of legal and archaizing style, e.g. pecuniae repetundae (the recovery of extorted money), and are found in the isolated forms secundus 'following' and rotundus 'round' (p. 444; emphasis mine - Alex B.). Powell 2007/2011 adds that even though "the gerundive suffix in -undus, rather than -endus, has an old-...


7

(I am posting my previous comment here in part because I hope this will help, in some small way, to get this site past the beta stage. However, I do not think my comments deserve a bounty.) Fr. Z seems correct to me: the ablative gerund, which can come close to being a mere present participle, usually expresses an ablative of means or cause (or is used ...


7

Fortunately, there is a straightforward answer. In medieval Latin, the ablative gerund often communicates manner. The result is not so different from a participle or even an adverb or adverbial phrase. For example, you will read that someone is doing something "flendo." This doesn't mean "by means of weeping," it just means "while weeping" or "in tears." So,...


6

FWIW, Pope Francis spoke about this recently (in an article translated into English by five independent experts): "I always felt my motto, Miserando atque Eligendo [By Having Mercy and by Choosing Him], was very true for me.” The motto is taken from the Homilies of Bede the Venerable, who writes in his comments on the Gospel story of the calling of ...


6

I think you've basically answered your own question. The literal translation you give is correct but is extremely unidiomatic English; the Douay-Rheims translation preserves the sense of the Latin but expresses it in idiomatic English. There's really no other option. Placing the main point of a question in a subordinate clause is something Latin does ...


6

I've never seen the gerund used in the vocative, and a search for -ende in the Packhum corpus turned up nothing but imperatives. But I would be very surprised if such a form existed. The gerund in general is defective, in that it has no nominative. If this missing form is needed, it's replaced by the infinitive. Since the vocative is almost always ...


6

This is a synchronic answer, pertaining only to classical Latin, as I believe the use of gerunds and gerundives was subject to some change praeclassically; what is more, they may have once been the same thing, or one may have been born from the other. So it would not make sense for me, especially without enough information, to distinguish between them in ...


5

Although the gerund can be used to express purpose, it's not allowed in this case because of the direct object Megaram. As stated in Allen and Greenough's Latin Grammar: The accusative of the gerund with a preposition never takes a direct object in classic Latin. They provide more information on the correct usage as follows: 503. When the gerund ...


5

I think your translation is very good and you have taken no unnecessary liberties. The only bit of information that is missing is the superlative. One other small improvement could be made by translating dative + gerundive + form of esse as "we must find", which is, I believe, the standard translation.


5

I don't know any reason why the first vowel of "lucubrando" would be short; I'd guess it might be an error. However, I was able to find some references that describe final o as often being treated as "common" (able to be long or short) for various words in various eras of poetry, and in particular in gerund. In Adam's Latin Grammar, by Alexander Adam, from ...


4

To clarify a little more. In Gramatica Latina (latin grammar) by Santiago Segura: Participe of passive future: It is also called verbal adjective in -NDUS and gerundive and is formed by adding to the present theme the suffix -ND-US, -ND-A, -ND-UM, sometimes by -e- (3rd and 4th conjugation): ama- ndus, -a, -um; dele-nd-us, -a, -um; leg-e-nd-us, -a, -um; cap-...


4

A lot of people have said this already, but please let me say it again, this time quoting E. C. Woodcock, "A New Latin Syntax", Paragraph 209: A gerund in the instrumental ablative is sometimes used so vaguely that it is almost equivalent to a present participle in agreement with the subject. The example he quotes is from Livy 8, 17, 1: "Consules ...


3

Allen and Greenough (504) say that a gerund in the genitive can take an accusative object, "especially a neuter pronoun or a neuter adjective used substantivally". Examples: nulla causa iusta cuiquam esse potest contra patriam arma capiendi (Cic. Phil. 2 53) artem vera ac falsa diiudicandi (Cic. Or. 2.157) They say that such constructions are rare ...


2

As there has been no answer so far, I would say that it is not attested. I have never encountered it in texts or grammars — and I would be glad to hear whether more experienced Latinists share my experience. It seems consistent in Latin that a verb can be treated as a noun, which uses the infinitive for nominative and accusative (without prepositions) ...


2

Just to add on to Alex B's answer, though I can't offer as authoritative of sources: Would it be appropriate to occasionally make the replacement in any context? In the late Republican period, the answer seems to be yes, but it sounds a bit archaic. I'd compare it to putting the object before the verb in English ("speaking with the object the verb ...


2

If "bibendum" is a gerundive, it seems to be accepted as such, then "bibendum est" is neuter, impersonal (no noun): "it-ought-to-be-drunk"; "it", presumably, any liquid that appeals to the speaker, and his pals; giving: "it (e.g. the wine)-ought-to-be-drunk". So "the-(drink)-it-ought-to-be-drunk"; literally correct; though it includes a near-subject, "drink"-...


1

I don't wish to pose as an expert in this sort of grammatical analysis, and perhaps should remain silent here. However, I like to regard the opening three words nunc est bibendum as a kind of stand-alone introduction, a way of declaring the fact of celebration: 'Now there is drinking', leading to a description of the festivities and their cause. Thus it ...


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