Translating "venustiorum" in Catullus 3

Question

I am curious about the use of the comparative form of venustus in the opening sentence of Catullus 3:

Lugete, o Veneres Cupidinesque, et quantum est hominum venustiorum.

The translations I've read treat it no differently than if it were venustorum. As I understand it, the use of this comparative by itself (without another noun that's being compared to) means something like "quite charming" or "more charming than normal." Is this correct? Would it be appropriate to translate it as "more charming than other men" or "more charming than most men"?

Also, how do we know that the comparison is not being made with Veneres Cupidinesque, the only other nouns in the sentence? I don't fully understand the use of the plurals here either, so perhaps that interpretation doesn't make any sense.

Answer 1

The Latin comparative and superlative are often translated as "more/-er" and "most/-est" in English, but not always. Sometimes it's a matter of absolute degree, what in English are usually rendered as "quite/somewhat/rather" and "very." If you had a comparison here, you'd be right to translate it as "more charming" (or whatever word you want to use for venustus), but without any comparison, it's translated more accurately as "quite charming/rather charming."

The plurals are straightforward: they're poetic plurals, and in particular veneres and cupidines appear chiefly in epigram. They're found again in Catullus 13, for example, and appear in Martial, who might have just followed Catullus' example.

Nothing is being compared with them, because they're being addressed. The o gives it away in Latin, but the editor makes it clear with the commas. Since they go with o, they are in the vocative case, which is indistinguishable from the nominative and accusative in the plural with these particular nouns. At any rate, they cannot be the objects of comparison, because they would need to be in the ablative (unless quam were present).

Answer 2

By using the absolute degree venustī, doctī to describe a group of people, we say that they're more beautiful or learnèd than most others. The others may be beautiful or learnèd in their own right, but the beauty or learning of this group of people just stands out to us as setting them apart from everyone else, and this prompts the epithet.

By using the comparative degree venustiōrēs, doctiōrēs we say that they're relatively more beautiful or learnèd than others, but not necessarily deserving to be singled out as such among everyone else in consideration. We simply regard them as "more or less beautiful or learnèd, rather beautiful or learnèd than not". At least that's the interpretation in this context - it will mean "the more beautiful or learnèd" if the context is picking and choosing people who exhibit relatively more of a particular quality, i.e. the reference is definite.

By using the superlative degree venustissimī, doctissimī we say that even in a group of people ordinarily regarded as beatuiful or learnèd, these particular individuals stand head and shoulders above the rest - they're the elite.

Catullus is saying that everyone who would like to think of themselves as even remotely "beautiful people" - a reference to his own in-group used in the sense of primarily spiritual beauty that's seen as holistic, a usage that also exists in English - should weep at hearing the terrible news, and preferrably be moved to memorise and recite the poem to as many other beautiful people as they can find.

While the comparative is more or less forced by the meter, using the absolute degree wouldn't work with quantum because it would imply a defined and extant group of people as opposed to meaning "anyone whatsoever who fits the description".